Posted by: edain | October 7, 2007

Jeffrey R. Holland: Mocking of the Catholic faith… lying?

Yesterday in the 177th Saturday’s Afternoon General Conference, Elder Holland, who I really like and respect, been the First and only Apostle I personally met so far, preach again about the LDS Church as a Christian one, but this time was actually attacking another faiths… I was shocking.

Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, of the TwelvesAfter all the ecumenical work done by the locals lider of the Church with another denominations, the Church, as Brigham Young did, preached to the members WORLDWIDE that their God is an “incomprehensible” one, making laugh to everybody.

But, then it came the astonishment, MY “incomprehension”, the LORD said through brother Joseph that the “truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; ” and that God can’t lie, neither the ones that are inspired by the Spirit, which is the messenger of all truth.

So, talking about the ATHANASIAN CREED quoted by Elder Holland, even when it’s part of the three ecumenical creeds, and WAS part of three Catholic celebrations in a year, the “doctrine” found in it was never understood or really accepted, especially because the terms weren’t philosophical.

The document, originally written in Latin, it’s no used anymore and the CURRENT creed adopted and well known for Catholics and other ecumenical Christians is the NICENE CREED.

So besides that Elder Holland is wasting with the feet the ecumenical relationship with other denominations, it is accusing of OLD PRACTICES! to those Churches. So is he telling us is Ok to put in the face of others their past mistakes? But then the LDS have a lot to face and recognize. Maybe is he given them back a full spoon of their chocolate?

Furthermore, the accusation of Elder Holland about the “Incomprehensible” God of the Christian denominations is totally false. and its just ironically, a translation mistake, something Mormons are custom to check for Bible mistakes. So where it says “Uncomprehensible” or “Incomprehensible” should be “IMMENSE” according to the original document in Latin.

Here is the English text with the original in Latin interlined:

  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith.
    Quicunque vult salvus esse: ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem.
  2. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit: absque dubio in æternum peribit.
  3. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity,
    Fides autem catholica hæc est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in Unitate veneremur;
  4. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance [Essence].
    Neque confundentes personas: neque substantiam separantes.
  5. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
    Alia est enim persona Patris: alia Filii: alia Spiritus Sancti.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.
    Sed Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas: æqualis gloria, coæterna majestas.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.
    Qualis Pater: talis Filius: talis [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  8. The Father uncreate [uncreated], the Son uncreate [uncreated], and the Holy Ghost uncreate [uncreated].
    Increatus Pater: increatus Filius: increatus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  9. The Father incomprehensible [unlimited], the Son incomprehensible [unlimited], and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible [unlimited].
    Immensus Pater: immensus filius: immensus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.
    Æternus Pater: æternus Filius: æternus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
    Et tamen non tres æterni: sed unus æternus.
  12. As also there are not three incomprehensibles [infinites], nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible [infinite].
    Sicut non tres increati: nec tres immensi: sed unus increatus: et unus immensus.
  13. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
    Similiter omnipotens Pater: omnipotens Filius: omnipotens [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  14. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.
    Et tamen non tres omnipotentes: sed unus omnipotens.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
    Ita deus Pater: deus Filius: deus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    Et tamen non tres dii: sed unus est Deus.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
    Ita dominus Pater: dominus Filius: dominus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  18. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.
    Et tamen non tres domini: sed unus [est] Dominus.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by himself to be both God and Lord,
    Quia sicut singulatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri, Christiana veritate compellimur:
  20. So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be [are] three Gods, or three Lords.
    Ita tres deos, aut [tres] dominos dicere, catholica religione prohibemur.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
    Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.
    Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus: sed genitus.
  23. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus: sed procedens.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
    Unus ergo Pater, non tres patres: unus Filius, non tres filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres spiritus sancti.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less than another [there is nothing before, or after: nothing greater or less];
    Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius, aut posterius: nihil majus, aut minus.
  26. But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal.
    Sed totæ tres personæ coæternæ sibi sunt, et coæquales.
  27. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    Ita, ut per omnia, sicut jam supra dictum est: et Unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in Unitate, venerenda sit.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must [let him] thus think of the Trinity.
    Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.
  29. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Sed necessarium est ad æternam salutem: ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Jesu Christi fideliter credat.
  30. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
    Est ergo fides recta, ut credamus et confiteamur: quod Dominus noster Jesus Christus Dei Filius, Deus [pariter] et homo est;
  31. God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world;
    Deus [est] ex substantia Patris, ante secula genitus: et homo ex substantia matris, in seculo natus.
  32. Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
    Perfectus Deus: perfectus homo, ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
  33. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching his Manhood.
    Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
  34. Who although he be [is] God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
    Qui licet Deus sit et homo; non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
  35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking assumption of the Manhood into God;
    Unus autem, non conversione divinitatis in carnem: sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
  36. One altogether, not by confusion of Substance [Essence], but by unity of Person.
    Unus omnino; non confusione substantiæ: sed unitate personæ.
  37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;
    Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
  38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell [Hades, spirit-world], rose again the third day from the dead.
    Qui passus est pro nostra salute: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
  39. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God [God the Father] Almighty,
    Ascendit ad [in] cœlos: sedet ad dexteram [Dei] Patris [omnipotentis].
  40. From whence [thence] he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    Inde venturus [est] judicare vivos et mortuos.
  41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies
    Ad cujus adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis;
  42. And shall give account for their own works.
    Et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
  43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam æternam: qui vero mala, in ignem æternum.
  44. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully [truly and firmly], he cannot be saved.
    Hæc est fides catholicæ: quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.

Again, let’s remember that even when the “Mystery of the Trinity” is the same in the actual Church, the Mormon answer to that mystery is : “The Trinity is One in PURPOSE”. But any scholar in UofU or BYU, even Nibley will recognize that that statement is not accurate, specially if as true investigators and faithful to Jospeh Smit’s teachings realize and recognize all the proof about statement made by Joseph and Brigham Young about the Trinity, statements way “incomprehensible” than the other Christians Churches. Does the Apostles actually deny the evidence?

Acording to the Mormon theology, God was the Christ in His probationary state (when God wasn’t a god yet) according to Jesus’ statement that he was doing what he saw the Father did. So that means that God the Eternal Father was the Christ in His probationary world. Then the Eternal Progression plan traced by modern authorities must be checked, or in other case revealed to the world, the statement that when we die if we were saints and hollies we will became INMEDIATELLY God, is not the total account. If Jesus (Jehova) was already the (and a) God of THIS world that mean He is already to repeat the human history in His own world, so His Christ will do what he will See what his Father did. But what about the other Gods? What Joseph Smith, Moroni and Abraham’s Christs will do? If they do what this Christ will see what their Father did, then thats not the Christ mission. Here is when crazy and denied “theories” start to make sense and illuminate the path answering questions, questions we never will hear be preached in the holy pulpit in a General Conference Worldwide.

Again, we should be most interesting in preaching about who we Mormons are instead of simply use a milligram of energy to critic, mock and preaching wrongly about other denominations.

LDS Welfare cooperating with the CRS


Responses

  1. I had many of the same feelings. Although I agree with Elder Holland that the Trinity doesn’t really make sense, I thought it was ironic that he stated in his talk that he respected others beliefs, when early in his talk he smirked when he said he didn’t understand the Trinity either and that got a laugh from the LDS audience. I thought this was terribly disrespectful and I was disappointed that it happened. Not only was it hypocritical the joking about other’s beliefs was against what the church teaches. I’m just glad I didn’t have a non-LDS friend at conference and I feel sorry for anyone that did.

  2. As I said, even the LDS Church doesnt really UNDERSTAND the “nature of the Trinity”, we know they are three different characters, with different types of bodies, but we do not know about the nature of the Holy Spirit for example or the pre-mortal body of Jesus that Jared’s brother saw, or about the grand beginning, or the nature of Jesus as the FATHER. As is taught in the church we WILL understand all in the afterlife when we became free of this finite mind.

    Good you didn’t have non-LDS at the conference, I did… well at home were we watched it. That’s how I was notified, we argued, I investigate it and then I apologized😀

  3. Personally, Elder Holland’s talk is much more tame and respectful than ANYTHING I have ever heard from the evangelical audience. To say that he “smirked” and got a laugh about someone else’s religion is wrong. He said that the formulation was “incomprehensible” and, frankly, it is. His argument was not a diss at trinitarianism. It was this: to say that Latter-day Saints are not Christian on the basis that they interpret the Godhead extra-Biblically is a contradiction because the whole concept of trinitarianism is extra-Biblical. Sorry–but it is. If you do believe in the trinity, no problem, but you have to recognize that squeezing that concept out of the Bible does take some effort and reinterpretation of the intention of the authors. Ask any NT scholar, and they’ll agree with you. I’m sorry, but I think it’s laughable how anyone could get riled up by Elder Holland’s remarks. I get much worse treatment for my beliefs daily.

  4. Dave,
    I agree with what Elder Holland said, I just think someone not of the LDS faith would have taken laughing about their belief in a bad way. Personally, I felt very uncomfortable when everyone in the audience laughed. If you don’t believe in the the Trinity then I agree you would probably not be offended.

  5. Did Dave just said that’s Ok to do a little of what they do to us? Taking another people “sacred” believes and fool around with it it’s not right and we LDS should have it really clear.

    And besides I really cant understand why the Church is so hurt about another denominations denying the title of “Christians”, enough proof is that when they argue and talk about our Church their “real Christianity” shines. As I said today to a friend of mine, an LDS have proved to be more Christian with higher standards than many of the other cults of Christianity.

    I just get tired when I see the liders of the Church doing changes in the Church just to fit in the “worldly” Christianity. Is like crying to be accepted in a club.

    I understand that preaching the gospel could be affected for those statements (other saying we are not Christians) but if we remember that the field should be ready to be riped then we shouldn’t be afraid the “numbers” go down.

    The chosen people never was afraid of been a “particular people”, the Hebrews and Israelites were hated for been different, the early Mormons also, casted away, and wounded for their believes, I don’t think that in Joseph Smith’s times the other churches thought about Mormonism as Christians neither.

    Why now? why be accepted for other churches?, because that’s the problem, the opinion of other churches, no the people, people that know a LDS have no doubt they are truly Christians. Then, why Change the logo of the Church, the title in the Book of Mormon, the images of Jesus for a “worldly” one, modifying the Temple ceremony? Are we close to change the steeples in our buildings for crosses?

    Mormons are Christians, but the Church doesn’t understand what they want, they want us to have believes accepted for them (standards) so we are in communion with them, when the Church accept it they will put us the Christian label on us. But if the Church do that then the restauration was for nothing and at this pace maybe will happen, we already saw (read) President Hinckley denying (white-lying) Joseph Smith teaching about becoming gods, etc…

    When someone ask me I said: “Of course we are Christians, but we are a DIFFERENT type of Christians. What is a Christian?, What makes one a Christian?”. And the answers usually are not related to theology but to scriptural “history”, but the churches are the ones fighting for theology, doctrines and dogmas fading Jesus’ teachings.

  6. Perception becomes reality. If the Church continues to allow others to define who they are eventually that will become the reality. This conference was the strongest “push” back that I have ever seen the Church do. I’m glad they did, but I don’t think mocking others beliefs is the way to go about it.

    Did you know that in some European countries our church has been put on dangerous cult lists by governments? Some of the people that make up these committees are leaders of other mainstream churches. So now you have governments in Europe saying LDS are cult members, not just fanatical Christians. It really is a growing problem. It really is time that the LDS Church leaders did something to combat this perception.

  7. Yeah… let’s vote for Mitt Romny, he he

  8. KINGDOM AGAINST KINGDOM PRAYER MINISTRY.
    17,MOROLUKE STREET OFF WEYSTREET,
    MUSHIN,
    LAGOS.
    Dear
    I am Pastor Danis Abiola.I saw your website on my system asap your church conference meeting to come.
    So my church is willing to attend,if you cangive us an invite letter.

    More also my church will be the one to take care of accomodation and every necessary things my itself.

    Awaiting tohear fromyou soon.

    Regards,
    Pastor Danis Abiola.


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